thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi, nicolle. thank you so much. i'm ari melber. we begin tonight with breaking news. just in the past part of this

afternoon, we got a whole bunch of receipts. this is the new document filing. if you follow the news you may have heard it's coming. and today you may have seen reports on it here in today's news coverage. well, we have it. the filing is big, billion dollar plus case against fox news. that's the defamation case against fox by one of the voting machine companies. why is this a stop story in the nation? because as partly expected, there are more new original bombshell revelations i'm going to go through with you now before i bring in our experts, including rupert murdoch, admitting things under oath that he doesn't admit when he's not brought into a courtroom looking at a fine. he admits select fox hosts completely endorsed the lie about donald trump and the election. murdoch asked under oath whether some of the hosts endorsed the big lie that the election was stolen that he didn't actually

lose, and murdoch replies yes, they endorsed. and that's not all. under oath we find a very different murdoch. he's a business type. he has all kinds of experience. he has communication skills. he has strategy. hi also understands something why we've covered this case from the beginning, why accountability matters, some questions cannot be dodged under oath without committing perjury, and that's why we're hearing a different murdoch than we hear from fox earnings calls or when he speaks in other forms. under oath we're hearing a murdoch who needs to be clear about the facts. the and the facts are he lied, they knew and it it went to the top. some executives out of line, and he talks about how some hosts like jeanine pirro and maria pushed what they knew to be a dangerous lie. >> i assume you are getting to

the bottom of exactly what dominion is. >> you said there may have been kick bobcats to some people who accepted the dominion software. >> there's also the question of accountability. this is a case that's about lies, the reaction of lies and, also about how according to the plaintiffs who are suing fox, they say they have the evidence that shows fox news after it discovered lies and after it knew what it was doing, it continued to do it. that goes to accountability. that's the opposite of, say, catching someone who is using the platform to commit defamation and removing them or removing executives who support that. so, the company here suing fox is pushing for a range of accountability, including a billion dollars plus in penalties. so, in this new deposition a lawyer asks, what should the consequences be when fox executives knowingly allow lies to be broadcast? and murdoch responds they should

be reprimanded, maybe gotten rid of. now, that's striking, because what mr. murdoch is apparently trying to do is walk the line, maybe even give up certain members of his team while trying to protect the rest of the fox empire. let me tell you, it looks like rupert murdoch, who's very important in this -- he's also someone with a position where he could decide to make this case go away if he wanted to offer settlement payments. he is trying to do more than one thing. none of this is happening in a bubble. i want to you recall that when we talk about consequences, the fox empire already canceled an entire show of lou dobbs, a pretty famous but controversial media figure after they were warned about getting sued for a lot of money in these kind of cases. so that's part of what's happening here. do you are a move executives, other people, do you course correct when the receipts inside this case also show a culture and executive operation inside

fox that up to the top was pretty down with lies, which is the opposite of journalism and makes it harder for them to defend themselves in this case. now, murdoch was motivated to keep everything going as it was going in november and december. they expected trump to leave the white house. they didn't know necessarily what would happen on january 6th, but they fed the lies that led people to act out that day. today's filing also reveals, when asked why fox continues to give a platform to, for example, mike lindell, who continues to this day to lie about dominion, murdoch said, it's not red or blue, it's green. even in a short form answer he has his gift of sound bite, you might say. he's trying to argue that this basically is a type of defense, that they're doing business, not being malicious. that's one of the things legally he needs to try to argue. it sounds like something may be bad if green, money, is the motivation to do shoddy,

damaginger an even defamatory media. what he's trying to say is they weren't malicious, weren't doing this for politics and that's his partial defense. well, it's not a good one, and money as a motivator does not of course defend you against outright knowing defamation. so murdoch also admits there wasn't enough voter fraud to change the outcome. everybody knows that. the question is asked, is it fair to say you doubt any claim of mass election fraud? he answers yes. you doubt from the beginning? murdoch answers under oath, yes, we thought everything was on the up and up. i think that was shown when we announced arizona. murdoch referring to something that so triggers donald trump and his fans that fox was one of the first to call that key state that meant at the time trump was losing. murdoch also admits he could have taken measures he failed to take. for example, when they saw people, certain guests were just

pushing lies, were not credible, were not newsworthy if they just came back and said the same lie over and over, he didn't do anything. this is another interesting thing. again, new out tonight. could he have stopped giuliani from being put on air? we all remember how that went. murdoch faces the question, could you have said, stop putting giuliani on the air? he says, i could have, but i didn't. >> the machines can be hacked. there's no question about this. their machines can be hacked. this is not a seasoning lar voter fraud in one state. the pattern repeats itself in a number of states. >> that is just a sampling. we're not going to give over too much of our air waves showing what is now evidence of defamation to the tune of $1.6 billion against fox. now, we told you from the beginning this was a big case. we did not know the evidence was going to be this big. we didn't know some of the hosts and executives kept committing

to writing so many things that are incriminating for them. that's why it's big news. now, if you followed mr. murdoch's career, and i've done reports on him here, as a factual matter you don't get far betting against him. even when he's down or seemingly out, he finds ways to pivot, and sometimes that means throwing people under the bus. he seems ready and willing to do that here at least with his so-called executive team. sometimes it means getting rid of famous anchors, which he did the dobbs and which some companies suing fox feels is a step they knew they were going too far. whether you count mr. murdoch out or not, what we're seeing filing after filing, day after day is a case where there is so much mounting evidence that if this does get to trial, that might be the worst thing for the fox news empire and rupert murdoch that we've seen in years, and according to the plaintiffs, that would be a very good thing indeed for restoring some standard of truth and

accountability in our polarized politics and media at a time when people are trying to literally overthrow the government, commit sedition, and kill innocent americans in the anytime of lies that they often heard on fox news. with that in mind, we want to bring in two experts on this. nyu law professor melissa murray and baydy beast reporter will summer who's written extensively about this. welcome to both of you. professor, i want to go to you first. every time there's a filing we do see some real evidence, whether it's on the deposition side, people forced into some level of admission, or of course some of those damning texts we've seen. i've laid out what's new tonight. i'm curious what stands out to you. >> there's a lot here. this is the defamation case to end all defamation cases. like, you typically don't get defamation cases with this much evidence, in part because for a

large corpslation like this, the standard so so high. you have so much evidence that goes all the way to the top. rupert murdoch conceding yes, he could have done something, but he didn't. you have general counsel saying, yes, this is a really bad idea to allow these individuals who you know to be lying to have a platform, yet we did it nonetheless. these are sort of blockbuster admissions that you don't ordinarily have in a case like this. the other thing that's quite striking although not necessarily relevant to the defamation claim is how have interwoven this news corporation is with the republican party. over and over again, rupert murdoch discusses reaching out to his good friend jared kushner or reaching out to mitch mcconnell, not necessarily to talk about election fraud, but it just makes the point that fox news is essentially a mouthpiece for this party, not necessarily an independent news source.

it's very much in bed with the republican party. >> that's a point we wanted to get to, professor. it's really striking. will, i'm curious how you see the information in propaganda in that. it's a republican party that really works with fox as a lever. we've shown sean hannity doing endorsement events. you'll be very hard pressed to find reporters at "the new york times," "the wall street journal," the a.p., your outlet who go out and do campaign events endorsing any politician in any party. with fox, it's just regular. the former republican speaker is on their board. he comes from a different wing of the party, and the new evidence show his concern, which is bad for them because it shows they have people on the inside warning about this. here's the paul ryan email. this is the top. you don't usually see this stuff. quote, ryan believes some high percentage am americans thought the election was stolen because

they got a diet of information tell them the election was stolen from what they believe were credible sources. murdoch responds, wakeup call for hannity who's been privately disgusted by trump for weeks but was scared to lose viewers. what do you see here, will? >> i think there's so much interesting stuff in these ma teerls. you talk about fox news as a wing of the republican party. one of the most striking things has been an email where murdoch said, let's just focus on lekking republican senators in georgia. you can watch an hour of fox news and get the sense they're trying to help republicans, but to have it put that plainly i think is remarkable. additionally, you really see it laid out there, that desperation where fox is kind of stuck between the truth and risk of the liable lawsuit and their viewers. so in this new filing we see fox executives freaking out about the ratings. we see rupert's son saying, i'm worried about the ratings.

these are keeping me up at night. the idea they were under siege and had to ramp up the line to the audience, because they were so afraided of this audience they created through lying. >> yeah, and will, that they had competition from people who were not to the right of fox, but just more irresponsible, reckless, and full of lies. and i say that very carefully, because a marketplace of ideas, and here's a more conservative offering, cool, whatever. watch what you like. but what you had was the imitation of a television program over on programs like news max that were more blatantly trying to present a world where trump was re-elected, and it's no secret that if you're willing to go that far, you're willing to find an audience in the same way that cults do. >> you can see in these emails -- they're looking at news max, for example, one of their competitors.

they're saying, i never heard of these guys and they're pulling massive ratings because they're pulling our viewers away. in these messages, tucker carlson is talk about trump as a demonic force that could destroy them all. it came across in the filings as well that this massive wealth machine they created could be destroyed, essentially, by the truth. >> yeah. professor murray, i want to show what murdoch is good at is trying to thread this needle. it's not his first rodeo. he points to some of the coverage and says, well, fox was just mentioning or covering this stuff. well, number one, it's noticeable many outlets covered aspects of this. none of them are being sued for this kind of defamation. there's a way to cover with fact checking, just like on this program we have guests from all wings of congress. there's a way to do that without joining or as rupert admitted, endorsing lies. tucker carlson would bounce

around. sometimes he did -- and we reported this -- seemed to criticize certain things in public sidney powell was saying but would use his frame work to suggest, well, this stuff should be looked at. the you're giving time to a flat earther, holocaust denier while saying, we don't know, it's a trick, but it can still act to endorse. the question in the courts, whether this rises to being part of the defamation case. let's take a look at this. >> tens of millions of americans suspect this election was stolen from them. that mean wes now live in a country where a large percentage of our population no longer believe ours democracy is real. that is sad. it is also dangerous. at this stage, the fraud we can confirm does not seem to be enough to alter the election results. of course, that can change. the real point is that fraud took place. >> curious what you think of

what he's doing there stacked against what murdoch says -- oh, tucker was just saying it's nonsense. >> i mean, this has to be the defense that fox tries to pursue in order to defeat a claim of defamation, you have to show you weren't acting with malice, that you were simply reporting on topics that were generally newsworthy, and it was newsworthy at the time to talk about election fraud, and tucker carlson is admitting this is something americans have on their minds at this point in time. but i think what's so spectacularly stunning about this evidence that's been presented in this summary judgment motion is that the volume of it isn't the kind of volume you would expect for a newspaper outlet or a media outlet that was simply reporting on the news. like, they know, and they talk about how much they know this is improbable or unlikely or that some of the allegations that are being made by individuals that

they platform on their station are actually far too extreme than what would be acceptable in ordinary discourse, or even just questioning. there is a point here where in the aggregate all the evidence seems to suggest this was a company that knew these allegations were likely scurrilous and continued to feed them and cultivate them in this environment where something like january 6th could happen because they were spreading that the election was stolen. >> you make several important points and the final point that it fed the insurrection is something paul ryan was concerned about. he's a conservative republican. he had access to the hosts, murdoch, and how everything works. the fact that he on the inside is concerned is damning. i hate to repeat myself, the professor knows it's part of my job to repeat myself -- we'll

defend every media outlet's first amendment rights whatever ideological place they want to be. we don't on this program want to go near defamation laws to punish disagreement, ideology, freedom of speech. but boy, is it a loft evidence that they weren't doing that, that on the inside they were knowingly lying. i'm running out of time, but you look like you have one more thing to say, professor. >> where we are in the lawsuit, this is a motion for summary judgment. is this judge going decide this on the papers, or does the judge believe there are sufficient issues of fact left open that could proceed to a trial? it seems here dominion is saying, you have everything you need to know to establish there was malice here. and the question will be for murdoch and fox news corps whether or not this proceeds. seems to be an open and shut case. >> yeah, it's been building up that way. professor murray, will somer, thanks to both of you.

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of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. we're back with pulitzer prize winning columnist gene robinson. in that big defamation filing today. we have been talk about it. gene, welcome back. >> thanks, ari. good to be here. >> rupert murdoch is someone that you have been aware of for a long time. he has a presence in so many political stories in more than one country. he's telling some truths here best i can tell while also being strategic. rarely do we get him under oath about american media and politics. let me read you a response, a quick one. quote, he didn't want to antagonize trump because he had a very large following and they

were probably mostly viewer of fox, so that would have been stupid. he's really giving up motivations, sometimes political, sometimes the green we mentioned at the top of the hour. what you see him doing in a case where the numbers are big enough to affect him and his company? >> he knows how to count, right? he doesn't want to lose all this money, and fox is a huge money machine. he's trying to walk a line. he probably understands sullivan vs. new york and he's trying to give answers, information that keeps him on the right side. i have been a journalist all my life, and normally in a liable case, a defamation case, i'm going to be bending over backwards to defend the rights of a news organization to print and say and broadcast what it

feels it needs to do in the public interest. however, i was reading through this filing and this does not sound like any news organization i have been associated with certainly or any news organization i've ever known from the outside. this is crazy. this is all about audience strategy. this is all about telling people who is more likely to get them to watch fox rather than telling them any truth and to get to the heart of the case, that involved telling them these outrageous lies about dominion, which they knew were lies. they knew that sidney powell, who was saying all this stuff about the company being founded by hugo chavez, long dead in venezuela, and rigs it and everything, knew it was crazy. they knew she was crazy, but department putting her on. they knew mike lindell the pillow guy was crazy, but kept

putting him on. they knew these things, yet they committed what i've always been taught is the sin, the greatest sin, which is you cannot tell your readers, your viewers something that you know is false. you can't do it, and that's what fox news did time and time again. >> yeah. you mentioned how it contrasts to your extensive journalism experience and every other newsroom. what does it mean for fox to have this curtain pulled back? because there are many people even critically dismissive of fox. not its propriety, perhaps its influence. and i got to tell you, gene, in plain english, some of what's in here is worse at the executive level and the top people than we might have known. >> yeah, it's worse than i imagined. it really is. i know some people who work at fox who i consider to be not just actual journalists, but

some who are good journalists and who have news values that i recognize and respect. but here, you're reading the executives at the top levels who are speaking on language that no real journalist would understand or accept. nobody ever talks like this at "the washington post." never, ever. it just -- it's not in our dna. and it's not supposed to be in the dna of what i think of as journalism. to tell people what you know are lies, what you know is not true. it's just crazy, and it's all about the green, as rupert says. it's all -- you know, on page 17, there's a section that starts with how frantic the executives are at the thought that they're going to lose viewers to news max and oan if they tell the truth.

we can't do that, we can't level with our audience, because heaven forbid we will lose viewers. that's not the way journalism works. >> right, and we have a recent one to one comparison. there are many newspapers that for a range of structural reasons were losing a lot of reader and losing traction and losing money, and many of those papers continued to keep their factual boundaries, and some of them pivoted and survived, and some of them we know hit harder times and layoffs. of course if you print lies on the front page, if you abuse and corrupt the one thing that is the baseline of journalism, you can find an audience for that. that's why conspiracy theories move so far. none of those newspapers that i'm aware of, did anything like what fox was doing on the road to the insurrection. so, again, the way people get cynical and say, that's business. no, a lot of private company sources didn't do it. gene, appreciate your candor and

perspective on the journalism front of this big legal story tonight. >> thanks, ari. good to be here. >> absolutely. thanks, gene. we've got a lot more in the show, including neal katyal coming up on those developments in georgia, from what's on the ground to the trump lawyers' complaints to "saturday night live" taking its swing at the grand juror. all that, next. that, next ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ avoiding triggers, but still get migraine attacks? qulipta™ can help prevent migraine attacks. qulipta gets right to work. keeps attacks away over time. qulipta is a preventive treatment for episodic migraine. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and tiredness. ask your doctor about qulipta.

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donald trump's lawyers are eyeing whether anymore bad news

night come out of georgia. there have been signs, recommendations of indictments. to be clear, all this noise has not led to any new indictments, nothing about donald trump himself. that said, one of the grand jurors made waves when she spoke about the case last week. there were headlines, criticism, countercriticism of the criticism. trump's lawyers say they'll try to use her as ammunition if there are indictments. >> we've lost 100% confidence in this process. we feel this process has been compromised. >> if any indictments were to come down, those are faulty indictments. we will absolutely fight anything tooth and nail. >> that is their right, and when we first reported this story, you may recall the discussions among legal experts about how this was unusual and questions about whether any lines were crossed. now the judge who personally oversaw this exact process has spoken out publicly as well,

saying, quote, grand jurors are not prohibited from talking about witnesses or prosecutors, nor are they prohibited from talk about the fruit of their deliberations, which would be the final report. i'm joined by neal katyal, former prosecutor for the obama administration. there's more than one layer here, including the way this foreperson forecast possible further indictments, which is interesting. one, now that the dust has settled, what do you think of what she told us about the process? and two, how do you analyze the trump lawyers' possible objections? which they seem to be referencing on the fear that their client might be indicted. >> yeah, so i think this grand juror made a mistake by doing this amount of talking. i don't think it's the right thing to do. she might face some personal liability, ari, for her statements, but the judge's remarks today i think suggest

georgia law is different than other jurisdictions. the deliberations of the grand jury, the fruits of at at least, belong to the georgian people and therefore the theory goes, she's able to talk about it. that's a far crime from trump being able to make something of this. of course he's going to attack the grand jury is rigged. when he loses in the grand jury, he's going to attack the election is rigged. his hair blue the wrong way, the weather is rigged. that's just his playbook. will it be successful as a legal challenge? i think the answer so undoubtedly no. even if she did something wrong, and that's a big if, it doesn't benefit trump because trump would have to slow unfair publicity, and that standard is unbelievably high. >> mr. findling is one of the lawyers who have been detailing trump's criminal defense.

here's what he told face the nation. >> look like they lost perspective over keeping separation between prosecuting attorneys and the members of this grand jury. there can not be a relationship. when the foreperson uses the word we, that lets you know there's a relationship there. when she says in interviews, certain battles were not worth us battling, it's not the special purpose grand jury litigating, it's the district attorney's office. >> your response? >> yeah, i think that's putting a lot of words in her mouth, first of all, and i'm not sure even if you could draw the inference from what he's saying that would undo something, because after all, the grand jury, ari, doesn't itself have the power to indict. it's up to the district attorney, and the district attorney's going to take the recommendations of the grand jury, you know, evaluate them. she obviously has been evaluating them for a while now, and then make a determination. and the idea it's somehow tainted by the grand jury or

grand juror's statement, it's not going anywhere. these allegations are technical and meandering and not particularly strong. i agree, the grand juror did something wrong here. it just isn't something that's going to benefit donald trump. >> understood, and appreciate the nuance. i guess the final question to you, neal, is, you take it all together, what do you think's happening in georgia? they clearly reached a legal step where they got the recommendations from this special grand jury. the d.a. also has said what in their jurisdiction is done a little differently, but tantamount to a target warning, target letter to several people. and yet all that said, months in from the letters and weeks in from the report, we haven't seen any other legal action. do you think it is kind of act or sit down time for this d.a.? or could there be reasonable justifications for this taking months longer?

>> ari, first of all, i think we want this process to take a while. we're talking about the potential indictment of a former president of the united states. hats off to them to study the case. given what the grand juror has said, everyone's trying to read the tea leaves. anyone can read them and make their own reviews. it does sound like the grand jury has recommended an indictment of very high up people, including probably donald trump. now it's up to the district attorney. what does she do with that? i think the evidence is very strong, and i think the idea you can just let this skate by -- it would be one thing if trump showed some contrition, "i did something wrong here", anything. he's never done anything like that, never accepted responsibility. and on something so -- a georgia election official everyone back before the phone call says,

look, mr. president, you better stop doing this stuff. someone's going to get shot, someone's going get killed. and he kept on doing it any way. i think that's the problem for the district attorney. i don't think anyone who's a prosecutor wants to go and get the former president. it's not fun for them. it's not what they signed up to to do to go after the president of the united states, but it's their job but if you're handed a bunch of crimes and an inkals transparent individual, the rule of law is a rule of law, means it's got to be enforced. i suspect we will see an indictment of the former president. >> you think based on these facts that's where it's head in the georgia. >> yeah, i think it would be a hard thing to look the other way. i mean, so far i haven't seen anything exculpatory that says he didn't do it. i know he's calling his phone call perfect, but that isn't

worth particularly very much, and i think that the evidence in that call and elsewhere really demonstrates something that is on the law breaking side of things. >> really interesting coming from you, sir. neal katyal, thank you. coming up, a mental health breakthrough. it involves magic mushrooms, and it may save people's health coming up. coming up. the adventurers and the doers. to everyone that works hard and plays hard. whether it's your first silverado or your tenth. thank you for making chevy silverado the #1 best-selling retail full-size pickup. (vo) businesses nationwide are switching to verizon business internet. thank you for making chevy silverado (woman) it's a perfect fit for my small business. (vo) verizon has business internet solutions nationwide. (man) for our not-so-small business too.

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drug laws in america. this is what's happening right now if you haven't heard. oregon is the first state in the country to legalize psychedelic mushrooms specifically for mental health use. this new oregon law will allow the mushroom use of a state certified facilitator. the facilitators are being train in the oregon now. the context runs back a long ways in american life. the magic mushrooms first classified as a schedule-one drug in the nixon era war on drugs, that have been reconsidered over time. the government said at that time there was no acceptable medical use for these. science saying that wasn't true then or now. there is research, not from people pushing mushroom experiences but from the normal research community that has found that in the right format,

the use of these substances can treat pstd, anxiety, addiction. this was covered by 60 minutes a few years back. >> i don't necessarily use the word happy. comfortable. comfortable. i've suffered from anxiety my whole life. i'm comfortable. that to me -- okay, i can die. i'm comfortable it's huge. it's huge. >> he took sill cyberen in 2016. he said he hasn't had a drink since. >> do you have have aday where you wake up and you're like, man, i wish i could have a vodka now, or a beer. >> never. >> not at all. >> which is the craziest thing because that was my favorite thing to do. >> the research showing perhaps contrary to conventional wisdom that selective use of that substance can as there prevent entire alcohol abuse and alcoholism. former "beat" guest michael

pollen has a book about this, "how to change your mind." it was turn into the a popular netflix program. >> but just think how much human suffering could be relieved if we have a new tool that work on depression, that works on anxiety, the fear of dying, addiction. that's a game changer. >> every day since the study was my best ocd day in my life. and several months out, my symptoms are, i mean, zero. >> i want it integrated into medical care, if not in retreat centers for any human being who would like to have this experience in a safe and legal way. >> and for this important discussion we're joined tonight by oregon congressman orel

blummenhour and psychologist julie holland. welcome to both of you. congressman, on the policyside, let's go to you first. what does it mean to have this as an option regulated and safely for individual who is might benefit from it? >> oregon's been pioneering in terms of how we deal with controlled substances. we were the very first state to decriminalize cannabis, and i am very pleased that we have a ballot measure that was approved by the public to be able to deal with this in a very controlled and thoughtful fashion under supervision of trained professionals doing it slowly and thoughtfully. but unlocking the potential for, as you mentioned, pstd, addiction, anxiety, issues that really have bedevilled us. this looks to be an extraordinarily promising

therapy, and oregon is doing it right. >> huh. doctor, what are the potential benefits here? >> well, you know, psilocybin is probably going to be approved for treatment of depression, first and foremost, but what we've seen in the clinical trials is it's been helpful in addictions, including cigarette addiction, alcoholism, there are trials looking at anorexia. any time you've got cognitive rigidity and people are fixed into the way of thinking about things, if you provide them with a mushroom experience they're going to have more flexibility in their thinking. >> first of all, congressman works in the congress. he knows all about cognitive rigidity [ laughter ] i appreciate the point you're raising because it would seem -- you're the doctor, you can educate us, but from reading the part of what seems to be

benefitting some patients is going through a type of experience that helps them sort of break through or take away something, which is perhaps distinct from, say, a cholesterol medication that you keep taking. can you walk us through that? >> yeah. i mean, it's very different from the daily dose. everyone if you take a daily dose of anti-depressants, it's masking the symptoms, not treating the understood lying cause. so when you have a psychedelic experience, your perception shifts. you've got a bigger picture. you start to think more about the global interconnectivity of things. but you approach it with a little bit of a what if mind set. what if i don't have to drink to be comfortable? what if i don't have to perform these compulsions in my ocd? it's a new way of thinking, and it's sort of an open mind experience. and for some people, it's an open heart experience. and those things can really lead to behavior change.

>> yeah, you put it very clearly, and it's interesting. professor -- excuse me, congressman, we look at the situation, and you think, so much of the history of america's drug war is root in the discrimination and faulty premises, and even if you take that out -- let's say you're not nixon style race-baiting drug war person -- there's still this levels and layers of stigma attached to it. you know, someone looks it up on the news and sees the discussion and thinks, oh, are we just hippies? do we love mushrooms? curious how that affects policy. because congressman, if there are things to help enrich people's lives and they're not allowed to even try them because of big government, federal government, et cetera, that just seems like a mismatch, and i'm curious how you deal with that as someone who's led on this in the political environment. >> part of problem we have today

is the federal government made a hash out of legalizing cannabis and it's created problems. what we have seen in oregon is the public understands this capacity to have a life-altering effect. we're fighting to allow under the federal right to try legal laws to be able to have greater opportunities for people to deal with things that are really profound in terms of anxiety approaching end of life, addiction that has resisted treatment. and doing this in a thoughtful,. addiction has resisted treatment. doing this in a thoughtful, slow, deliberate fashion under supervision of trained professionals an taking two full years to roll this out, i think this is a model for what we should be doing and it's going to make a huge difference in my state and i'm convinced soon across the country.

>> doctor, do you think there is a pathway here for the use of these substances? again, they're regulated. in a manner that can enrich human consciousness? >> i think it makes sense to look at the medical model first. just like cannabis, i think that's possible. everyone is sort of looking to oregon to see how they do it. i know colorado is right behind them and new york is talking about changing our rules as well. >> it's a really important area. we wanted to come with an open mind and hear from some of the folks working on this in the field. appreciate you joining us tonight. >> thank you. joining us tonight. >> thank you even deeper into parking spaces so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ]

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